Loot Rules Discussion

Vigilant Watch Guild Home Forums Raiding Loot Rules Discussion

This topic contains 0 replies, has 1 voice, and was last updated by metalbeast metalbeast 2 years, 10 months ago.

Viewing 1 post (of 1 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #345
    metalbeast
    metalbeast
    Keymaster

    Hello Everyone,

    This was inspired by Loot System Manifesto by Vuelhering of Icecrown

    WoW Loot System Information

    Important Considerations for Current Content Raiding

    1. Everyone attending has a chance to win – no reserves
    2. Easy to understand
    3. Easy single roll for Main Spec(MS), Off Spec(OS), or Transmog(TR)
    4. Loot received is generally proportional to time put in
    5. Little to no inflation. It should be close to zero-sum
    6. No useful items will be disenchanted
    7. System “feels” fair to the attendees

    Here are definitions and examples of common loot systems, with various editorial comments. Thanks to Vuelhering for most of the verbiage, it was gleaned from his Loot System Manifesto. He is also responsible for the Ni Karma Points Addon which we are customizing for Vigilant Watch.

    Dragon Kill Points (DKP)
    Definition: DKP are virtual “points” awarded to raid members when they attend a boss kill, or for set amounts of time raiding, or for other services to the guild such as spotting a rare-spawn monster or donating the guild bank. Items that drop from bosses usually have a predetermined minimum cost associated, and players may spend their accumulated points to “purchase” the item. Commonly, there are also tiers, so that those in the highest bracket get the first option to spend their points, then it drops to the next bracket, etc. Many systems also allow bidding, so that costs can be bid up by others which generally means rarer pieces go for more, and it drops to the minimum pre-set cost after the high demand has dropped.

    Vuelhering views: DKP build up the longer someone attends, and due to inflation, can be very unfriendly to new raiders. Often, DKP transfers to other dungeons equally which exacerbates the problem. Abuses are not only possible, but commonplace when poorly-run. Clerical errors (intentional or not) can build up, unseen …

    Metalbeast Views: I think that this is a bit too complicated to use and would not be fair to our friends from trade.I think it is critical that everyone that attends a boss kill has a chance at getting applicable loot from that boss. We will be looking to use a point system that does track and award for attendance and boss kills.
    Zero-sum DKP
    Zero-sum is a mathematical term, which means changes do not affect the total sum of the entire system. Regarding loot systems, it means simply that the total points coming in should approximate the total points leaving the system. Zero-sum DKP is a method of controlling inflation with DKP since all points spent to obtain items reenter the system by giving everyone a fraction of those points. It solves some of the other problems with DKP, too, but works especially well for inflation. The method of implementation varies, but is similar to the following example: A 40-man raid kills a boss, which drops an item predetermined to cost 80 points. The winner must spend 80 points (very possibly going negative), and each of the 40 attendees gets 1/40th of the cost, or 2 points. The total difference was -78 points by the winner, and 39 people got +2 points, for a net change in the system of zero. The total points in the system remains constant.

    Vuelhering Views: Zero-sum DKP is a solid solution to many issues with DKP, except it has a fatal flaw. World of Warcraft has both class-specific loot and non-class specific loot, and this problem manifests when a new raider enters the group. The system works very well for a static group, but can break badly when anyone enters the system. There is NOT EQUAL ROTATION of loot when the group is not completely static.

    Metalbeast Views: It makes mathematical sense but far to difficult to track and understand for most people. If we are going to establish a functional loot system then we will need to track and award past raid attendance and boss kill help.

    Zero-Reset DKP
    Zero-Reset DKP is gained similar to normal DKP. Items are offered to the one with highest DKP first, and if he exercises his option to take the item, his DKP is reset to zero (or he goes to the bottom of the list, or similar). This is a method of controlling inflation, and tends toward zero-sum. It is mathematically sound. An example of this is Suicide Kings, where you drop to the bottom of the list when you opt to take the item.

    Vuelhering views: Unfortunately with Zero-reset, it leads to not only hoarding of DKP (rather, the person who has first option refuses to take any items because it’s not the item he really wants), but frustrations when someone wants to blow all his points, but cannot spend it due to not getting the drop he really wants…

    MetalBeast Views: This system is not of interest as it can complete lock attendees from any chance.
    Main Spec (MS)
    /MS roll is veryone that can use an item rolls and the highest roll wins. This is used by many pick-up-groups, and relies on random chance of drop an item you can use, coupled with a random chance of a high roll to win the item.

    Vuelhering views: /random appears to be extremely fair on the surface, because the more you attend the more likely you’ll win a roll. Of course, there will be the inevitable “lucky roller” who might win several items in a row. But even ignoring the lucky roller, the system itself is not actually fair at all. The whole purpose of loot systems is to try to reward effort with loot in a manner that feels fair to the attendees. /random hurts those that have attended the most, and encourages only those that have won nothing to attend. This is because a long-time raider who has won a few items CANNOT ROLL when those same items drop again. But when an item he can use finally drops, so can all the people that rolled on those items he passed on. Contrary to the popular belief with /random, the more you attend, the LESS likely you will get loot, because the people that haven’t attended can still roll against you on the few items you can use. The better geared you are, the LESS likely you will get loot. Because poorly-geared raiders get to roll on more loot yet still roll against long-time raiders, it is not a fair system. Blizzard’s embedded rolling system falls into this, which works for short-term pick-up-groups, but not for long-term dedicated raiding. There is really no good way to make this fair, unless you allow everyone to roll on everything, and the winner sells loot rights to whomever he chooses… but then it becomes an issue of who has the most gold and that feels just as fair as it does in real life.

    MetalBeast Views: This is close to the system I have been using for my raids for years. It is the fairest and easiest to implement. There is no long term tracking. Everyone that attends has a chance to win. And we further enchance our system to allow on MS win per night (including Tier). You can win more but only if everyone you are rolling against has not. We also incorprate a single roll on all loot. 101-200 MS | 50-100 OS | 1-49 Transmog. It helps to speed things along.

    GDKP
    Gold DKP is a bidding system based on the almighty buck. It is much maligned, but is actually one of the fairest systems for non-static groups. The basic principle is this: instead of using DKP, you use gold (or whatever the currency is), and the rule is simple: highest bid in gold wins the item.

    MetalBeast Views: Ummmm.. No, we will not have GoldDKP

    Loot Council
    Loot council is a system in which a group of the raiders pick who wins loot. It is based on each raider usually linking there item and then the council voting.

    MetalBeast Views: Takes too much time and could lead to excessive loot drama.
    Roll Bonus System
    Roll bonuses are systems where you gain points to your roll, or you roll a larger die than others. It skews loot towards those that have the most points. A simple example would be, every hour you attend you get a +10 to your die… so when someone has attended 5 hours, they would /random 1 150, while new folks would have to /random 1 100. Other systems would have everyone do a standard /roll 100, and add the bonus to the roll. Other systems use a “raid factor” which multiplies your roll by (raids/items) or some variant.

    Vuelhering views: The implementation of the system is what matters. Few of these systems are Zero-sum, so inflation may be an issue. Some of the problems of poor implementation can come into play, similar to normal DKP. Because these systems are generally hastily put together, there are nasty holes that can be exploited which are not obvious to the non-math-inclined. Again, the devil is in the details,

    MetalBeast Views: Yummy, part of this looks great. The ability to award points will be used. We are going to call them Karma points after the Karma Addon loot system.

    More to come. this is just to help enlighten some people about World of Warcraft Loot Systems.

    Visit us on Feathermoon. Vigilant Watch Guild.

    MetalBeast

  • Author
    Posts
  • #345
    metalbeast
    metalbeast
    Keymaster
    • Offline

    Hello Everyone,

    This was inspired by Loot System Manifesto by Vuelhering of Icecrown

    WoW Loot System Information

    Important Considerations for Current Content Raiding

    1. Everyone attending has a chance to win – no reserves
    2. Easy to understand
    3. Easy single roll for Main Spec(MS), Off Spec(OS), or Transmog(TR)
    4. Loot received is generally proportional to time put in
    5. Little to no inflation. It should be close to zero-sum
    6. No useful items will be disenchanted
    7. System “feels” fair to the attendees

    Here are definitions and examples of common loot systems, with various editorial comments. Thanks to Vuelhering for most of the verbiage, it was gleaned from his Loot System Manifesto. He is also responsible for the Ni Karma Points Addon which we are customizing for Vigilant Watch.

    Dragon Kill Points (DKP)
    Definition: DKP are virtual “points” awarded to raid members when they attend a boss kill, or for set amounts of time raiding, or for other services to the guild such as spotting a rare-spawn monster or donating the guild bank. Items that drop from bosses usually have a predetermined minimum cost associated, and players may spend their accumulated points to “purchase” the item. Commonly, there are also tiers, so that those in the highest bracket get the first option to spend their points, then it drops to the next bracket, etc. Many systems also allow bidding, so that costs can be bid up by others which generally means rarer pieces go for more, and it drops to the minimum pre-set cost after the high demand has dropped.

    Vuelhering views: DKP build up the longer someone attends, and due to inflation, can be very unfriendly to new raiders. Often, DKP transfers to other dungeons equally which exacerbates the problem. Abuses are not only possible, but commonplace when poorly-run. Clerical errors (intentional or not) can build up, unseen …

    Metalbeast Views: I think that this is a bit too complicated to use and would not be fair to our friends from trade.I think it is critical that everyone that attends a boss kill has a chance at getting applicable loot from that boss. We will be looking to use a point system that does track and award for attendance and boss kills.
    Zero-sum DKP
    Zero-sum is a mathematical term, which means changes do not affect the total sum of the entire system. Regarding loot systems, it means simply that the total points coming in should approximate the total points leaving the system. Zero-sum DKP is a method of controlling inflation with DKP since all points spent to obtain items reenter the system by giving everyone a fraction of those points. It solves some of the other problems with DKP, too, but works especially well for inflation. The method of implementation varies, but is similar to the following example: A 40-man raid kills a boss, which drops an item predetermined to cost 80 points. The winner must spend 80 points (very possibly going negative), and each of the 40 attendees gets 1/40th of the cost, or 2 points. The total difference was -78 points by the winner, and 39 people got +2 points, for a net change in the system of zero. The total points in the system remains constant.

    Vuelhering Views: Zero-sum DKP is a solid solution to many issues with DKP, except it has a fatal flaw. World of Warcraft has both class-specific loot and non-class specific loot, and this problem manifests when a new raider enters the group. The system works very well for a static group, but can break badly when anyone enters the system. There is NOT EQUAL ROTATION of loot when the group is not completely static.

    Metalbeast Views: It makes mathematical sense but far to difficult to track and understand for most people. If we are going to establish a functional loot system then we will need to track and award past raid attendance and boss kill help.

    Zero-Reset DKP
    Zero-Reset DKP is gained similar to normal DKP. Items are offered to the one with highest DKP first, and if he exercises his option to take the item, his DKP is reset to zero (or he goes to the bottom of the list, or similar). This is a method of controlling inflation, and tends toward zero-sum. It is mathematically sound. An example of this is Suicide Kings, where you drop to the bottom of the list when you opt to take the item.

    Vuelhering views: Unfortunately with Zero-reset, it leads to not only hoarding of DKP (rather, the person who has first option refuses to take any items because it’s not the item he really wants), but frustrations when someone wants to blow all his points, but cannot spend it due to not getting the drop he really wants…

    MetalBeast Views: This system is not of interest as it can complete lock attendees from any chance.
    Main Spec (MS)
    /MS roll is veryone that can use an item rolls and the highest roll wins. This is used by many pick-up-groups, and relies on random chance of drop an item you can use, coupled with a random chance of a high roll to win the item.

    Vuelhering views: /random appears to be extremely fair on the surface, because the more you attend the more likely you’ll win a roll. Of course, there will be the inevitable “lucky roller” who might win several items in a row. But even ignoring the lucky roller, the system itself is not actually fair at all. The whole purpose of loot systems is to try to reward effort with loot in a manner that feels fair to the attendees. /random hurts those that have attended the most, and encourages only those that have won nothing to attend. This is because a long-time raider who has won a few items CANNOT ROLL when those same items drop again. But when an item he can use finally drops, so can all the people that rolled on those items he passed on. Contrary to the popular belief with /random, the more you attend, the LESS likely you will get loot, because the people that haven’t attended can still roll against you on the few items you can use. The better geared you are, the LESS likely you will get loot. Because poorly-geared raiders get to roll on more loot yet still roll against long-time raiders, it is not a fair system. Blizzard’s embedded rolling system falls into this, which works for short-term pick-up-groups, but not for long-term dedicated raiding. There is really no good way to make this fair, unless you allow everyone to roll on everything, and the winner sells loot rights to whomever he chooses… but then it becomes an issue of who has the most gold and that feels just as fair as it does in real life.

    MetalBeast Views: This is close to the system I have been using for my raids for years. It is the fairest and easiest to implement. There is no long term tracking. Everyone that attends has a chance to win. And we further enchance our system to allow on MS win per night (including Tier). You can win more but only if everyone you are rolling against has not. We also incorprate a single roll on all loot. 101-200 MS | 50-100 OS | 1-49 Transmog. It helps to speed things along.

    GDKP
    Gold DKP is a bidding system based on the almighty buck. It is much maligned, but is actually one of the fairest systems for non-static groups. The basic principle is this: instead of using DKP, you use gold (or whatever the currency is), and the rule is simple: highest bid in gold wins the item.

    MetalBeast Views: Ummmm.. No, we will not have GoldDKP

    Loot Council
    Loot council is a system in which a group of the raiders pick who wins loot. It is based on each raider usually linking there item and then the council voting.

    MetalBeast Views: Takes too much time and could lead to excessive loot drama.
    Roll Bonus System
    Roll bonuses are systems where you gain points to your roll, or you roll a larger die than others. It skews loot towards those that have the most points. A simple example would be, every hour you attend you get a +10 to your die… so when someone has attended 5 hours, they would /random 1 150, while new folks would have to /random 1 100. Other systems would have everyone do a standard /roll 100, and add the bonus to the roll. Other systems use a “raid factor” which multiplies your roll by (raids/items) or some variant.

    Vuelhering views: The implementation of the system is what matters. Few of these systems are Zero-sum, so inflation may be an issue. Some of the problems of poor implementation can come into play, similar to normal DKP. Because these systems are generally hastily put together, there are nasty holes that can be exploited which are not obvious to the non-math-inclined. Again, the devil is in the details,

    MetalBeast Views: Yummy, part of this looks great. The ability to award points will be used. We are going to call them Karma points after the Karma Addon loot system.

    More to come. this is just to help enlighten some people about World of Warcraft Loot Systems.

    Visit us on Feathermoon. Vigilant Watch Guild.

    MetalBeast

Viewing 1 post (of 1 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.